Gaming n00b

[CoffeeFiend]

I've been considering buying a xbox360 for a while, and I'm starting to have serious doubts about it.

Graphics:

I found out it uses a 500 MHz ATI Xenos GPU, which is a precursor to the ATI R600 chip. Some people say it's on par with a X1900 or so. That doesn't sound like amazing graphics for mid-2009, even if it's optimized a lot. Sounds like a $60 Radeon 4670 would give me better graphics in the first place.

Price:

A xbox360 pro (not the crippled elite -- 256MB flash and no HDD, no ethernet, no old games, is this a joke?) is $300, a 2nd wireless controller is another $60 and a year of LIVE is $60. Total: $420 CAD + taxes, then recurring $60/year. Once obsolete, replace everything. And that's for one console only.

vs

a pair of Radeon HD4670's for the kids @ $70/ea, 3 wireless controllers (in case we all want to play at once -- I already got a decent vid card) @ $60. Total: $320 CAD so already $100 saved, and no recurring online fees. And that's for the equivalent of 3 "consoles"! Once obsolete, upgrade individual parts (e.g. keep controllers, get new video cards) so the savings are significant. And then I look at all the inexpensive games (basically anything that came out after warcraft 2/civ 2/sc 2000 and the like, we haven't played yet), special offers like this...

So for a lot less money, the 3 of us can play a game at once, or 3 different games, each on our own 23"+ monitors (no annoying split TV thing), and with better graphics. We could play using the wireless 360 controllers, but also using the keyboard/mouse.

Then again, I know price and graphics aren't everything. I'm quite happy with the graphics on my old xbox (not the 360). And while our Wii has craptastic graphics (seriously, I can't believe how incredibly bad they are) the games are still a hoot to play, and the kids are loving it. However, the xbox360 seems to be mostly like the old xbox, just with shinier graphics and some new titles (which look a lot like the old titles, but with better graphics and different maps).

Is there any actual reason I'd want to get a 360 instead? Besides the 3 or so games that are exclusive, that is? It seems like I'm just not getting it. No risks of RRODs with the PC either. Oh yeah, and we get DirectX 11 on the PC too.

[ripken204]

Not trying to be rude at all but is there a point to this thread?

Consoles are inferior when it comes to performance, that is a given.

What it really comes down to is what games do you want to play?

I am perfectly happy with gaming on my pc and i also have two wireless 360 controllers that i use in a few games, they work well.

Sports games are moving away from pc which makes me quite mad, madden 08 was amazing on pc, both the video and the audio kicked rocked. You will have halo if you are about it as well as other exclusives.

So decide what games you want..

[CoffeeFiend]

Not trying to be rude at all but is there a point to this thread?

I was just wondering... Like I said, I'm an absolute n00b when it comes to gaming. I've never tried a 360 either. And I haven't seen a single new game in the last 5 years (besides Wii games) so I'm definitely no expert.

Consoles are inferior when it comes to performance, that is a given.

I was expecting I'd only get similar or better performance with a really expensive card, which I'd need to replace twice a year kind of thing.

What it really comes down to is what games do you want to play?

Not sure. Personally I prefer FPS games, but the kids like other stuff too.

I used to think consoles were cheaper, and delivered kick-a** graphics on the cheap. Seemingly not. I just wanted to hear about others who prefer the 360 or vice-versa.

[Zxian]

I can't say much for the X360, since I don't have one, but there are some titles that I would much rather play on my PS3 than on a PC. Call me crazy, but the entire Metal Gear Solid series works really well for consoles, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how the controls would work on a PC.

Although Assassin's Creed runs many, many, many times faster on my computer than it does on my PC, there's something to be said for the simplicity of the console controller. I know it's possible to get the 360 controller to work with a PC, but in my honest opinion, the layout is just wrong (and it doesn't fit in my hands all that well). Sony got it right with the PS2 controller, and I'm glad they stuck with it for the PS3.

The advantage that consoles give is the guaranteed level of performance. A given title will work equally well on one 360/PS3 as the other (comparing the same "level" of the 360). The same clearly isn't true for computers, and games can be very much dependent on one component or the other (GPU bound vs CPU bound).

[Zenskas]

Graphics:

I found out it uses a 500 MHz ATI Xenos GPU, which is a precursor to the ATI R600 chip. Some people say it's on par with a X1900 or so. That doesn't sound like amazing graphics for mid-2009, even if it's optimized a lot. Sounds like a $60 Radeon 4670 would give me better graphics in the first place.

Well it didn't come out in mid-2009 so of course it isn't going to be amazing. But there is no MS operating system on it to slow it down and it does not use DX10 either. Also, the resolution of most TV's (e.g 720p) is inferior to most PC screens (say... 1650x1050-which is almost full HD!) so it can run games faster for the LOD (level of detail) it puts out. I know the PS3 has a similar GPU to a GeForce 7800, yet looks way better than a 7800 ever would.

Price:

A xbox360 pro (not the crippled elite -- 256MB flash and no HDD, no ethernet, no old games, is this a joke?) is $300, a 2nd wireless controller is another $60 and a year of LIVE is $60. Total: $420 CAD + taxes, then recurring $60/year. Once obsolete, replace everything. And that's for one console only.

The elite is actually better than the pro (at least in Australia) with a 120GB HDD and HDMI cable etc. I think you may be talking about the 360 Arcade model.

So for a lot less money, the 3 of us can play a game at once, or 3 different games, each on our own 23"+ monitors (no annoying split TV thing), and with better graphics. We could play using the wireless 360 controllers, but also using the keyboard/mouse.

Then again, I know price and graphics aren't everything. I'm quite happy with the graphics on my old xbox (not the 360). And while our Wii has craptastic graphics (seriously, I can't believe how incredibly bad they are) the games are still a hoot to play, and the kids are loving it. However, the xbox360 seems to be mostly like the old xbox, just with shinier graphics and some new titles (which look a lot like the old titles, but with better graphics and different maps).

Is there any actual reason I'd want to get a 360 instead? Besides the 3 or so games that are exclusive, that is? It seems like I'm just not getting it. No risks of RRODs with the PC either. Oh yeah, and we get DirectX 11 on the PC too.

If you buy a 360 these days, you have a very high chance it will not RROD as they have fixed that up. The 360 is way better than the original. Looks better (physically) plays better games and has HD graphics. I'm a PC gamer all the way as I want the best graphics I can get out of a game at 1440x900 which always looks better than a console. But there are plenty of good reasons for consoles...such as being able to sit on the couch easily! And better portability, plus never any hardware issues that effect the software (the software is made JUST for the 360, and not for a range of CPU's and GPU's etc) and like it has been said, when you buy a console game you know it will run with a decent frame rate. Hope this helps your decision!

Edited August 1, 2009 by Zenskas

[ripken204]

Not sure. Personally I prefer FPS games, but the kids like other stuff too.

I used to think consoles were cheaper, and delivered kick-a** graphics on the cheap. Seemingly not. I just wanted to hear about others who prefer the 360 or vice-versa.

The current day of console gaming is expensive, they are mini computers.

If you ever tore apart an xbox (I have) you would be very familiar with what is inside.

You prefer FPS games and imo FPSes are meant for the pc, i have never played an FPS on a console that i thought played better than it did on the pc.

[jcarle]

Not trying to be rude at all but is there a point to this thread?

Consoles are inferior when it comes to performance, that is a given.

Some things never change. Just because you don't see the point doesn't mean there isn't one. Everything about this thread is completely valid and there are other aspects to gaming then performance statistics. Who's the real n00b I wonder?

@CoffeeFiend:

I started out as a console gamer when I was a kid and became a PC gamer way back when in the days of the 386 when Dune II, Doom and 3D Wolfeinstein started. I had sworn to PC gaming and vowed to never go back. Today, at the exception of FPSes and strategy games, I prefer gaming on the console.

I enjoy gaming for the purpose of gaming, not to figure out if I can get more FPSes by tweaking this setting that might make card unstable. I just want to insert the game, sit down and play. Gaming's about entertainment, isn't it? Anyone who believes that PC gaming is cheaper either a) pirates their games or B) have never owned a console. There's nothing cheap about PC gaming. You need a good PC, you need a good video card, and if you plan to always keep playing new releases, you'll be faced with constant and never ending upgrades. New release games are no cheaper for the PC their console versions more often then not as well.

Consoles are fixed performance points. So developers have a fixed target platform to develop against. That results in a repeateable and predicteable gaming experience. PC gaming is like pitching a baseball at a blind man. The first time you put the game in, you pray because you never know how it'll actually run until you've tried it on your own PC.

I've been a life long fan of the Need For Speed racing game series. Everytime a new title came out, I pre-ordered it. I was always amongst the first to have it. And I was always often amongst the first to be frustrated. There's nothing more disappointing then to wait three full months for the game, excited like a little boy at Christmas from the teasing of slowly appearing pre-release screenshots and videos only to find out that because you bought the $300 video card instead of the $600, that the game runs like crap. So you spend the next hour tweaking settings, trying to get the run smoothly because everytime you turn a corner, the game stutters just enough for you to turn into a wall. Finally you just give up, toss the game into a shelf and figure you'll try it in 6 months when you change your video card *again*.

On the console, it's a completely different story. You buy the game, you put it in, you play. The game doesn't stutter. The game doesn't require you to tweak your video settings. You just play. And it's fun. Does the fact that the game runs at 1920x1080 instead of 2560x1600 matter? No because in the end, it's not about resolution, frames per seconds, vertex counts or shader performance. It the end, it comes down to the gaming experience.

If you've ever seen GRID, DIRT or Grand Tourismo on the PS3, you'll see that there's not enough of a difference visually to say that the PC is the ultimate platform. Today's consoles are not the NESes we had as kids. Who cares if they're built using PC based components? They do what they're designed to do. Be fun. And the cost? Buy the console, once.

Something important to take into account if you're going to get a console though is your adaptability to the controllers. The XBox 360 controller and the PS3 controllers are both very different to handle and offer a vastly different feel when you hold them. It's worth taking the time to hold each one for a bit to figure out what you're most comfortable with. Although the game list for the XBox 360 is often more appealing, I couldn't personally adapt to it's controllers and I ended up getting a PS3.

Edited August 1, 2009 by jcarle

[ripken204]

jcarle - you don't have to be rude to me all the time

my initial post was to his initial post, there was no real thread yet. we eventually branched out from it.

and to many, resolution/graphics is very much part of the gaming experience.

why else have we gone from the atari to where we are now? so don't go saying that those things don't matter because they do.

to me the pc is the ultimate entertainment platform. prices have been dropping and a high end gaming pc has become very affordable.

high end graphics cards can be had for dirt cheap compared to a couple of years ago.

again i am coming back to games. the wii has the worst graphics out of the current consoles but many claim that its games are more fun than games for other consoles. also the gaming style has to be addressed.

consoles also miss out on some great games and they cannot handle all games made for them either.

oblivion is a great game imo, looks absolutely amazing with a good gpu and it definitely helps the gaming experience.

they made the game for 360 and the game lagged.. and it was on low graphics quality..

some games are built for certain reasons, be it fun, graphics, the game engine, or all three.

[PC_LOAD_LETTER]

DISCLAIMER: and angry words in this post are not directed at anyone in this thread. (unless you work for sony on their PS3 team in which case f*** YOU)

I have a High end PC, PS3 and a Wii.

I decided against an XBOX360 because unlike the original XBOX (that I still have), the 360 is just not dependable IMO and the only thing worse than paying for expensive hardware is doing it more than once.

The PS3 p***es me off because I can pay the exact same price for a game I would pay on the PC (usually) and a I get locked into using a broken matchmaking system, half of the games run at 720p instead of 1080i (even when they say 1080 on the friggin box!) and i know the engine is capable of running higher because my PC runs it at 1920*1200 (once the 'exclusivity period' is over and its available on PC too) oh and the icing on that cake is no FSAA! none! zero! that means my PS3 looks better on 32" cheapass 720p only LCD than it does on my 47" that supports **** near and resolution on the market. Also if I buy a game on disc instead of waiting 2 years for it to be on the Playstation store, I will forever have to insert the disc when I want to play it even though I have the entire game and 50$ of DLC installed on the HD for it and the same exact game is available in the store (burnout paradise). Oh and LittleBigPlanet SUX!

PC games make me mad because EVERYTHING must have some sort of multiplayer even if its broken, tacked on, and pointless (or worse yet MP only -the PS3 is getting bad about this but its not terrible yet). Sometimes I play games to escape the droves of morons on the 'net that cant keep their s*** running right/remember their keymap for more than 5 minutes. (ever try playing L4d when 1 of your randomly matched teammates keep getting knocked out of the game by porn popups and another spends the whole **** match dicking with his mic?) now thankfully l4d has a good solid SP mode for times like this but more and more games do not.

The best thing I can say about the Wii is it doesnt lie to me and pretend to be 'nextgen' It is also a very welcome refuge from the cesspool that is internet gaming. It looks like a** even in 480p scaled up to 47" but at least it doesnt lie to me and try to tell me that its a "Nextgen Truly Immersive HD Gaming Experience - Only on the PS3" but without a Mario game every 3 months and a new Zelda game every 6, its just a little white dust collector.

The downsides to PC games (to me) aren't actually legit issues. they are artificial constraints placed on PC gaming in order to either drive consumers to consoles to combat piracy. The usual downside that diesnt affect me is people make the argument that you have to have a high end PC to enjoy most PC games. For most games this isnt true. but Ive always had highend hardware so so even for the games that do require the latest video card it hasnt been an issue. If my PS3 didnt play bluerays i woulda sold it a long time ago. If i knew everything about the PS3 that i know now, i probably wouldnt have bought it in the first place. hell -if Burnout Paradise launched on PC at the time i wouldnt have bought it either. It truly is the greatest racing series ive ever played.

[Zenskas]

That's a nice write up you have done there geek! (I like the old name better )

There are negatives for all of them, but you can't really complain about everything on PC having a MP. It's not like console's have heaps of single player games with multiplayer modes while for the same game on PC it is only multiplayer! That would suck! Consoles have their place for some people, so do PC's.

When you think about it though, how much more stuff can PC's do? Office tasks, photo editing, video editing, gaming, emulating console games (try getting a console to emulate a PC game!), etc, etc, etc. I would have a new-gen console but would rather spend any money I have on a PC right now. Probably later I will get a console as racing games, RPG's and third person games are funner on consoles for the most part. I play FPS's and some strats though so my PC plays these types of games much better (mouse vs controller).

@CoffeeFiend: If you can get an XBOX 360 Pro for $300 I say go for it. Over here an arcade (the one you thought was an elite in your first post) costs $300! A Pro costs $400 ($100 more than over there) and an Elite costs $550. So if you can get a Pro for the same price as I could buy an Arcade bundle over here (with no HDD) then it's pretty good in my eyes.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Zenskas

[ripken204]

Zenskas - keep in mind there are many types of RPG. Some are best for pc and some are best for console.

Same goes for racing, I would much rather use a wheel than a controller.

Also keep in mind that you can use a controller for any PC game.

[CoffeeFiend]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies

works really well for consoles, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how the controls would work on a PC.

I thought about that too. Consoles games for the most part seem to have fairly decent controls. With a lot of PC games, it can be a lot of fun trying to hit the right buttons (for weapons, different actions and so on). But then again with PCs you can fiddle with the settings and make it into what you want. With consoles, the OK settings (that most often can't be changed) differ quite a bit from one game to another, and that's always annoyed me a lot (e.g. a game where the button that changes weapon uses a medikit in another). So:

Consoles -> easy, but not flexible, works out of the box

PC -> lots of buttons, but flexible, but takes time to configure

I'd call that a tie really.

Sony got it right with the PS2 controller, and I'm glad they stuck with it for the PS3.

You just made me not ever want to buy a PS3 The one thing I always despised about the PS2 is the absolutely awful controller. It feels just wrong. Can't stand it.

I think you may be talking about the 360 Arcade model.

You're completely right. I mixed up the names.

I started out as a console gamer when I was a kid and became a PC gamer way back when in the days of the 386 when Dune II, Doom and 3D Wolfeinstein started. I had sworn to PC gaming and vowed to never go back. Today, at the exception of FPSes and strategy games, I prefer gaming on the console.

Well, I used to play on older computers (trs-80 and such), then PCs (286), then console (NES), then PCs up until the P1, then consoles again (mainly the old xbox, and now the Wii). Looks like I might go PC again

I enjoy gaming for the purpose of gaming, not to figure out if I can get more FPSes by tweaking this setting that might make card unstable. I just want to insert the game, sit down and play.

Of course. I have to admit I love the simplycity of consoles (put the disc in, wait and play). I really, really don't care for video card benches and the like.

Anyone who believes that PC gaming is cheaper either a) pirates their games or B) have never owned a console.

I dunno about that! I'm looking at either upgrading 3 PCs for games or buying a console, and the one console costs more!

Also, I went by Future Shop today (Canadian "Best" Buy) as I was going by today and wanted to see what PC games could be like. So I picked up Left 4 Dead. The PC version was $45, and the 360 version $60. I also looked at call of duty 4, which is also $10 more on the 360 than PC. And then again, there's those specials like the steam orange box thing. And the 360 costs $60/year for live on top of that. And pretty much any used game or bargain bin game out there we haven't played either, so more savings there. So far, consoles are looking anything but cheap to me.

You need a good PC, you need a good video card, and if you plan to always keep playing new releases, you'll be faced with constant and never ending upgrades.

Well, we got good PCs already. New video cards (not top of the line) aren't that expensive, and the graphics are great. Then again, I don't need the absolute latest games, nor maxed out settings.

Buy the console, once.

That's another thing that worries me. The "once" part. Then you buy the next console "once" too. I don't see that as being any cheaper than new vid cards.

I'm saying this also because I bought my original xbox kind of late, and like 2 years after, they stopped releasing games for it altogether. Old games are nowhere to be seen. Replacement controllers? Forget about it (only ebay seems to have any). I have that bad feeling that if I buy a 360 now, as it's been out since 2005, it'll be discontinued shortly after, and I'll be stuck buying the new console yet again. With the PC, it's not like they're going to discontinue replacement PC parts (like they did to the xbox hardware), or PC games altogether (like they long stopped making games for it).

The XBox 360 controller and the PS3 controllers are both very different to handle and offer a vastly different feel when you hold them. It's worth taking the time to hold each one for a bit to figure out what you're most comfortable with.

Zxian settled that one But then again, on the PC I have choice. I can get the 360's controllers, or get PS-like controllers, or whatever else from another company (e.g. Logitech). I was considering the 360's controllers mainly for the familiarity with the old xbox controllers' shape.

Now, having played L4D on my Radeon 4670 for a few minutes, I'm totally amazed by the graphics (everything maxed out seemingly, and @ 1920x1200 no problem). I don't foresee needing better graphics than that anytime soon (no pricey vid card), and playing the latest games on medium settings is fine by me too. Next step, I'll buy a 360 controller to see how well that works. And if it's not too much of a pain to setup and use, we'll likely just play on our PCs.

[Zenskas]

Now, having played L4D on my Radeon 4670 for a few minutes, I'm totally amazed by the graphics (everything maxed out seemingly, and @ 1920x1200 no problem). I don't foresee needing better graphics than that anytime soon (no pricey vid card), and playing the latest games on medium settings is fine by me too. Next step, I'll buy a 360 controller to see how well that works. And if it's not too much of a pain to setup and use, we'll likely just play on our PCs.

Looks like you may start gaming a little then! Valve's Source engine games are very easy to run these days and looks nice which is a big plus for PC's. Also UT3 looks very nice and runs fast. As for Crysis...well looks the best but runs the worst (quarter of the speed of Source engine games on my PC-while not looking 4 times as good!).

I recommend buying games off Steam as they have great weekend deals every week if you check (off the top of my head - Orange Box for $10, GRID for $15, Company of Heroes for $7.50, UT3 for $10) and so long as you have a large internet cap or it is unmetered then it's great!

[CoffeeFiend]

I recommend buying games off Steam as they have great weekend deals every week if you check (off the top of my head - Orange Box for $10, GRID for $15, Company of Heroes for $7.50, UT3 for $10)

Whoa, that's crazy cheap. 8 games total (which all seem quite decent), for $42.50. Eight 360 games would run me about 10x that.

And you're right. There's plenty more inexpensive games on there. Tons of them $15 and under. And plenty of decently priced packs too.

Also, thinking about consoles being lots cheaper, it doesn't seem that way when I look at our Wii. It's cost us an arm and a leg so far:

$300 Wii (actually, I paid someone $100 more because there were none in stock, and I wanted to get the kids one in time for xmas, but that's besides the point)

$70 2nd controller & nunchuck

$30 battery pack & charger for remotes

$20 per sports kit, x2

$20 for one zapper

$100 for the balance board (no charger yet)

$110 for guitar hero world tour with guitar (and I'd much rather have the metallica one, another $60)

Over $500 on extra games. Didn't count, too lazy (and scared) to do so.

Then ~15% taxes on top of that

And now we're looking at having to buy them motionplus things @ $25/ea, classic controllers @ $25/ea and a bunch more games so we're not quite done yet!

We're close to $1500 spent so far, on a single console, with about a dozen games. Whereas $500 (still cheaper than one 360, and about 1/3 of what we spent on the Wii so far) would get me decent vid cards for the 2 PCs that don't, 3 wireless 360 controllers, so kind of like 3 consoles, along with the Valve Complete Pack which has 21 great games!

[Zenskas]

Whoa, that's crazy cheap. 8 games total (which all seem quite decent), for $42.50. Eight 360 games would run me about 10x that.

And you're right. There's plenty more inexpensive games on there. Tons of them $15 and under. And plenty of decently priced packs too.

Yep it is cheap! But you have to wait for weekend deals. Even without weekend deals, games are cheaper on Steam. Assassins Creed was $10 one weekend but the normal price on Steam is $20-still cheap! Right now you can get Dawn of War+Dawn of War Winter Assault+Dawn of War Dark Crusade+Company of Heroes+Company of Heroes:Opposing Fronts for just $25 in the 'Relic super pack' this weekend! Or the new Dawn of War 2 for $30 instead of $60 normally on Steam!

There are also those massive packs like the Valve Complete Pack for $100 which comes with Counter-Strike, Team Fortress Classic, Day of Defeat, Deathmatch Classic, Half-Life: Opposing Force, Ricochet, Half-Life, Counter-Strike: Condition Zero, Half-Life: Blue Shift, Half-Life 2, Counter-Strike: Source, Half-Life: Source, Day of Defeat: Source, Half-Life 2: Deathmatch, Half-Life 2: Lost Coast, Half-Life Deathmatch: Source, Half-Life 2: Episode One, Portal, Half-Life 2: Episode Two, Team Fortress 2, and Left 4 Dead!

Edited August 2, 2009 by Zenskas