Jump to content

Did something happene in Autum 2008 to the Win98 community?


winxpi

Recommended Posts

When HTML, PHP, ASP, Flash and all others will no longer be backwards compatible, none of the 9x users will be able to browse the web anymore.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about.

  • HTML has always been backwards-compatible, and HTML5 will be backwards-compatible as well.
  • The web browser does not need to know anything about PHP and ASP. They're server-side scripting languages that output file contents. In most cases, HTML.
  • Flash is not part of the web, and I'm not sure if backwards-compatibility is even in its nature. It's a proprietary framework that doesn't even run all that great on GNU/Linux.

You'll say there's convertors - soon there won't be people to build/update them anymore, so they'll lie down and die.

You really think the Win9x community can't do it itself? That it's a talentless bunch?

They are changing standards too fast and too deep.

When I look at the history of HTTP, HTML and CSS, I see this isn't true at all. They 'change' quite slowly.

Final blow will be the introduction of IPv6 which will definitely kill all 9x web activity

Nonsense. There are routers that can do 6to4. That is, to be connected to an IPv6 Internet while being part of an IPv4 network.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


BenoitRen said

"Nonsense. There are routers that can do 6to4. That is, to be connected to an IPv6 Internet while being part of an IPv4 network. "

Thank you for addressing this issue, that people seem to shun away from.

I assume you are not talking about routers in our homes, but big routers used by people who offer DSL services etc. What's to stop them from blocking 9x systems from transmitting data, if they want to? Is such a thing possible?

Anyway, thanks again from commenting on this possible problem.

I still want to know where I can get that patch, to see how it takes in a 9x system: can anyone oblige me?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[somewhat offtopic]
Although a lot of little improvements have been made between Hitler's Volkswagen design and todays Volkswagen beetle, functionally they are quite similar: they take you from point A to point B. Maybe twice as fast today.
:blink: No! Today's sorry contrafaction of the beetle cannot be even remotely thought of as a true Volkswagen beetle! It may be faster. But it's as false as a US$3 bill. The last true Volkswagen beetle was produced in Mexico, in 2003. :(

[/somewhat offtopic]

I'm not an expert in cars, but didn't Hitler drive a Mercedes!?

However it's a good example to show it's not import if you have an old or new car like an old or new OS, because both are good to allow people operating a computer or surfing the web, with more or less features/bugs and higher or lower speed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[somewhat offtopic]
... drive a Mercedes!?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen

Yes, it does not matter whether you use an old or new OS to do a thing, as long as you get your desired results. BenoitRen may do comfortably whatever he needs to do -- riding his dinosaur Win95 :thumbup It does not matter what the computer can do, but what you can do with the computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactely.

I understand your concept of mature product.

M$ has been knee jerking in a awkward manner to fnd ways to attract the clients.

But they finaly understood that you don't create new product just by adding more bloat.

If you look at the official w7 blog, there are amazing change in mentality and in conception.

I have put my 2ct overthere myself. Hehehe.

Of course they can't technicaly do a new w9x moder version, they have to continnue the XP/Vista line, but they seem to improve it the way we like, or at least better. Given the comment I have read, it looks good.

Any more w9x user having tested w7?

Talking about the web being not backward compatible is like saying asfalt on new roads is no longer compatible to old volkswagen cars.

making the web w9x uncompatible would require modifying the source code of the one billion or so websites existing today.

Sure theere are some script or css that won't work properly on w9x but it'snot what will make the site unreadable. In fact most sites displays normal with scripts disabled. the reasn is that most of the scripts are server side.

And we are not even talking about the 30% of surfers using FF, Opera or something else, or who are on a non windows os.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When HTML, PHP, ASP, Flash and all others will no longer be backwards compatible, none of the 9x users will be able to browse the web anymore.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about.

  • HTML has always been backwards-compatible, and HTML5 will be backwards-compatible as well.
  • The web browser does not need to know anything about PHP and ASP. They're server-side scripting languages that output file contents. In most cases, HTML.
  • Flash is not part of the web, and I'm not sure if backwards-compatibility is even in its nature. It's a proprietary framework that doesn't even run all that great on GNU/Linux.

You'll say there's convertors - soon there won't be people to build/update them anymore, so they'll lie down and die.

You really think the Win9x community can't do it itself? That it's a talentless bunch?

They are changing standards too fast and too deep.

When I look at the history of HTTP, HTML and CSS, I see this isn't true at all. They 'change' quite slowly.

Final blow will be the introduction of IPv6 which will definitely kill all 9x web activity

Nonsense. There are routers that can do 6to4. That is, to be connected to an IPv6 Internet while being part of an IPv4 network.

I think I know what I'm talking about. Few days ago I stumbled into a post regarding the impossibility of accessing a gaming site (somewhere in this thread). I quickly replied: spoof your User Agent and went away. But curiosity made me come back and try that myself - result: no dice! The site wouldn't budge with any type of user agent I tried (and other registry tweaks as well). And guess what: it's Flash. The OS/browser check is all embedded in Flash, so it's impossible to just load the page source and search for a hole to squeeze through.

Second round: while spoofing user agent, I had the curiosity to log into my GMail account. Oh well... I was a Vista user with IE8 for Google and they tried hard to let me log in but... no, it wouldn't - the browser would just sit and wait.

I then lowered compatibility version until something finally loaded. Needless to say the page was all screwed up, supposedly transparent items were pink (best way to check for badly designed sites and/or bugs is change default white color to something else) and some elements were not working at all.

Now with both the above explained, tell me what will happen when 50% of the sites will use that Flash check and the other half, code similar to GMail's?

I could throw in doc <-> docx, software built with VS2008 (direct dependancy on VS2008 runtime that doesn't work in 9x) and many others that I'm too tired to discuss now.

As for IPv6 routers... not all of us can afford one and if we do, we may have surprises (as I did, seeing my Edimax BR6214k wouldn't connect to MSN messsenger regardless of the settings) and not all of us can return them or scrap'em and buy another one and so on.

The pressure to get rid of Win9x worldwide is obvious and it won't take long until any and all hardware produced anywhere in the world will explicitely refuse to interface to a Win9x machine by design. And there is no KernelEx for hardware...

Oh, BenoitRen... maybe the Win9x community will step into self-building their own hardware. :whistle:

Edited by Drugwash
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And there is no KernelEx for hardware...

Not totally true. There are ways to hook code to get around hardware issues.

I ported GOMPlayer to an 11 Year Old TYAN S1590 using an AMD 450MHz where it prompt crashed.

The AMD 450MHz CPU is a Pentium 1 Class Processor. GOMPlayer uses P6 instructions such as CMOVcc.

I created an Intercept VXD that emulated the missing Instructions and was able to use GOMPlayer without Patching it's code.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, BenoitRen... maybe the Win9x community will step into self-building their own hardware. :whistle:

For the moment and in the near future you may use Windows 98 even in Vista compatible motherboards as explained in other threads.

You may also use doubleboot, running XP to do your work and Windows 98 even without drivers to repair, update and switch in a few minutes between the active XP primary unit and its clone. For this purpose Windows 98 has an inmense value in terms of security and reliability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The AMD 450MHz CPU is a Pentium 1 Class Processor.
Didn't know there were P I CPUs above 233MHz. Admittedly, I'm not very familiar with the AMD family - always used Intel CPUs (actually I've also used Cyrix ones back when tinkering with P I machines).

A quick googling revealed the conditional move CMOVcc has been implemented in Pentium Pro so maybe that AMD already has some support. They also say that particular opcode is quite useless nowadays.

Regardless, GOMplayer - which I use on a daily basis - is quite "heavy" even for my P III 667MHz machine where for some reason DVD playback is choppy therefore unwatchable. Not to mention it does require some RAM for a decent AVI playback. I wonder how much RAM can that old board support - none of my P I boards could take more than 128MB.

cannie, I hope you wouldn't expect every Win9x user to actually buy a licence for a copy of a soon unsupported OS (that is XP) or even worse (Vista, 7, etc) just to be able to run their 9x. That solution is only for people who like to play around and reinstall 5 times a day or so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cannie, I hope you wouldn't expect every Win9x user to actually buy a licence for a copy of a soon unsupported OS (that is XP) or even worse (Vista, 7, etc) just to be able to run their 9x. That solution is only for people who like to play around and reinstall 5 times a day or so.
I'm sorry but I do have to disagree. Used original retail Win 9x can be bought quite cheap from eBay and the like, if you're patient. And garage sales, here in Brazil at least, still yield fruits (got two Win 98SE for clients last year, at US$5 each). But this won't last, of course.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume you are not talking about routers in our homes, but big routers used by people who offer DSL services etc.

There are few IPv6 routers available for the consumer. I was mainly saying that 6to4 exists, and is a solution.

The OS/browser check is all embedded in Flash, so it's impossible to just load the page source and search for a hole to squeeze through.

As I said earlier, Flash is not part of the web. It's a cancer.

Needless to say the page was all screwed up, supposedly transparent items were pink (best way to check for badly designed sites and/or bugs is change default white color to something else) and some elements were not working at all.

Of course. They were probably using CSS that IE6 (you were using SlimBrowser, right?) doesn't support, but IE7 and IE8 can. A showcase for bad browser sniffing and bad design, but not actual incompatibility.

I could throw in doc <-> docx, software built with VS2008 (direct dependancy on VS2008 runtime that doesn't work in 9x) and many others that I'm too tired to discuss now.

By now you're not talking about web technologies anymore, so I wonder why you're addressing this.

As for IPv6 routers... not all of us can afford one and if we do, we may have surprises

Excuses.

all hardware produced anywhere in the world will explicitely refuse to interface to a Win9x machine by design

What nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The OS/browser check is all embedded in Flash, so it's impossible to just load the page source and search for a hole to squeeze through.

As I said earlier, Flash is not part of the web. It's a cancer.

Ridiculous hyperbolic language.

I don't like Flash much, either. But, like it or not, Flash is part of the web. It is used to deliver web content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like Flash much, either. But, like it or not, Flash is part of the web. It is used to deliver web content.
That's true: You will barely find a website without a flash console as the main content provider.

This is utter non sens because plain javascript, or would I dare say, plain html is much more reliable, but what do you want. Professional designers wants to show their skill and to justify their salary, come up with something the client can't understand or duplicate.

The only use for flash is to protect copyrighted content from direct download and duplicating.

But just about everybody and their dogs use it now (usualy sharing video via YouTube).

So Flash is a big part of the web. But that makes the web a less efficient and less attractive media than it would be with downloadable video files and right-clickable pictures and other simple stuffs.

This also true for Vista users, and also when w98 support the flash as intented.

Flash is a cancer for everyone, much worse than the PDF cancer.

Flash and PDF defeat the original advantages of the internet: Sharing and duplicating content ad infinitum and for the largest audience possible, fast access and easy, intuite, human friendly interraction. They also conspire to allow viruses to infect your system.

Flash is the main hindrance to the propagation of video through the internet, and the big stop to the web as a mulitimedia medium. YouTube is what induced the Flash cancer. YouTube alone successfully destroyed the concept of web based video by making video dependant on bandwith.

No matter my OS, I can't watch any YouTube or Flash video because my dsl connection is too slow.

My only option is using flash movie downloader, url sniffers and other half-legal hacking tools which only work a fraction of the time anyway.

Talking about speed: A plain html (or with a short script, let's say) would display in a fraction of second. A Flash content takes age to ...load... . Not only on w9x machines.

Now with both the above explained, tell me what will happen when 50% of the sites will use that Flash check and the other half, code similar to GMail's?

That will make all their websites buggy, unreliable, unattractive to new visitors. The 30% (and growing) of non-IE8+ users won't be able to watch their website normaly.

w9x users will only be 0.00002% of those who will complain.

Edited by Fredledingue
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Flash and PDF defeat the original advantages of the internet: Sharing and duplicating content ad infinitum and for the largest audience possible, fast access and easy, intuite, human friendly interraction. They also conspire to allow viruses to infect your system.

Because flash files or pdf files cannot be shared, duplicated ad infinitum maybe ? And they don't allow fast access and easy, intuite, human friendly interraction perhaps ? :whistle:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...