5X the Ram and machine still slow :realmad:

[Javalicious]

Greetings all - I don't really know if this is a hardware thing but I figured this might be a good place to start. Been trying to get more juice out of my grandparents PC for them since the thing is aggravatingly slow. It's a 550mhz processor running a slim win98se so really it ought to be able to surf the net without complaint. I have a rescued $2 garage sale k6-400 loaded down that still manages to outpace it 10 to 1! Initially I blamed the single 64mb ram (8mb shared to onboard video) but since I've upped that to 320mb there's not one iota of performance improvement. The k6-400 does better with 128. I thought maybe someone in the know might recognize something in these specs that could explain the crappy performance (everest benchmarks it barely equal to a 133mhz system).

Memtest86 says the ram is ok -still, something is tying a big piano to it's butt...

Mobo: PCChips Slot 1/Socket 370 M741lmrt

Processor: Slot 1 PIII 550mhz

Xcel 2000 chipset (sis 620)

64-bit AGP Graphics accelerator

128 x 128 x 64mb PC100 sdram

Davicom 9102/A fast ethernet adapter (connected to cable high speed internet)

8GB samsung hdd

Lite-on cd rom LTN403L

The internet connection/cables are all good as every other PC surfs fine - I've tried setting "best performance", "optimal settings" etc in Bios but nothing changes. This is with a fully fresh installed/patched Win98se. I've updated the bios and every driver that had one available and still no joy. It's a very annoying - like pulling teeth - waiting for what I'm typing to show up on the screen here is yanking my last nerve LOL! Something ain't right.

Anyone have any experience with a similar setup out there? I'd appreciate some troubleshooting guidance here as there's no way my grandparents are going to buy a new PC - this puppy is it!

surfing example - just to load this page after clicking "new topic" took 1 minute and 47 seconds!!!! on the other pc it took less than 3 seconds - same hour/same cable modem/ isp etc (but independently - pcs are not networked).

[bledd]

can't polish a turd..

[submix8c]

It might have adware/trojans/virii on it eating the CPU cycles and Memory. Go cruise around the Malware Prevention forum for some good cleaning tips. (Even if you Installed Fresh, you connected directly to the WWW, hence "Doors Opened").

I have a 233mhz P-II with 256mb RAM and it screams (among other better PC's w/Win98SE and even XP...), so the specs can't be the problem. Oh, and BTW, you might need the Drivers from/for the SIS chips to get anything out of it, e.g. running the HDD in Real Mode with default MS drivers. I think I might have had the same problem with a SIS-based MoBo...

Here's the Manual -

http://www.motherboards.org/files/manuals/89/741lmrt-14.zip

Here's the BIOS, VGA/LAN "patches" (scroll down a little) -

http://pcchipsusa.com/support-pcchips-bios.asp

Here's the remainder of the drivers (look for the MoBo)-

http://pcchipsusa.com/support-driver.asp

HTH

Edited February 2, 2009 by submix8c

[cluberti]

I know this is hardware, but I'm moving this to the 9x section so that the folks there can have a crack at this particular issue.

[BenoitRen]

Even if you Installed Fresh, you connected directly to the WWW, hence "Doors Opened"

Win98's doors are closed by default.

[Winn98er]

Did you apply registry tweaks to improve connection speed?

[ldb]

These are just suggestions:

1. Definitely do the TCP registry tweaks using something like TCP Optimiser.

2. Download Cacheman 5.11 and tweak the memory and cache settings for the amount of memory you have.

3. Check the BIOS to see if the CPU settings including any L1 or L2 caches are enabled.

4. While in BIOS, see if you are using the correct DMA or UDMA settings for that hard drive you are using.

5. Download something like SiSoft Sandra where you can test the system components. Get an earlier version from say FileHippo.

6. Check device manager for any conflicts.

7. Run Scandisk and Defrag the Hard drive.

8. Switch browser from IE if using that to Firefox 2.0 as IE is all screwed up and much slower.

9. Consider a hard drive upgrade as the one you are using is a definite hinderance to the system. Not sure what your BIOS will accept, but you will see a noticeable improvement with a HD that runs 7,200 rpm and has an 8 MB cache.

10. Check your swapfile size, some reccommend one that is 2.5X the amount of memory. With 320, that should not be necessary. I would start with 128 minimum and no maximum and lower the minimum until you see usage above it, then raise it.

[James_A]

Another possibility is packet collision with the Ethernet adapter. Check the settings for Half/Full-duplex and for 10/100Mbps.

Davicom mention this on their website, but I find their English somewhat difficult to understand!

.

[Ponch]

I think some early 8GB HDD were still limited to UDMA33, being sure you run UDMA66 like the MoBo allow would make a huge difference. It would need a 80wires IDE cable. Also make sure the disk is less than 80% full.

Such a system cannot be that slow.

[Javalicious]

thanx all - extra info from the top:

@ submix8c - appreciate the links but I have the manuals and all new drivers from pcchips, sis, etc. it was one of the first things I did when I got their PC and brought it home.

@cluberti - cheers! I was going to post here but convinced myself that it has to be hardware so thought I better go there.

@winn98er - yes there are some connection tweaks - the same ones applied to all my 98se machines including the k2-400 dirt devil (also a "net screamer" like submix8c's 233) I use an assortment from dsl braodband reports, drtcp and mdgx - only this machine is giving me grief for whatever reason arrg.

@idb - are the cacheman 5.11 tweaks like the "maxcache/supermax" etc tweaks on the mdgx pages? I have put those mdgx reg tweaks in.

- bios says :internal cache on system bios cache on and these from the boot screen which I cannot change: base memory 640kb, external memory w/b cache on, l2 cache type write back.

- DMA is on, udma mode 4, drive supports udma4/166 max (according to hdat2)

- Sandra says things like get a newer processor, update bios, turn off smooth fonts... (which I've done) - I have the newest bios for this machine (last one released was 2000) and this is the biggest processor the board can have according to mobo manf.

- no conflicts in device manager

- ran defrag - no change

- only using Firefox, IE never opened, no Outlook Express installed, Thunderbird installed but runs as horribly as Firefox and everything else. This thing has problems opening it's own Windows Explorer however surfing itself is only half as slow as surfing the net.

possibly of interest??* It takes a ridiculous amount of time to get past the windows splash screen - did and does - it did it originally, before the new ram, the clean install, with or without tweaks - the hdd cables aren't loose or old etc but there is something new about it for me anyway - the hdd is in a removable case that can pull out from the front and has a key lock (gramp bought it from a refurbisher of sorts years ago) The case itself and connections look pristine, i have the key and took it out and checked it over.

I will set the swap file as per your suggestion and next try hdd change - I don't have any really fast/new hdds but I will try the fujitsu from the dirt devil to see if it makes any difference.

will report back...

[Javalicious]

Another possibility is packet collision with the Ethernet adapter. Check the settings for Half/Full-duplex and for 10/100Mbps.

Davicom mention this on their website, but I find their English somewhat difficult to understand!

.

It is set to "auto sense" there is no option for a half duplex these are the option:

100Mbps

100Mbps Full_Duplex

10Mbps

10Mbps Full_Duplex

Auto Sense

should I change from auto sense? We are on shawcable internet.

I think some early 8GB HDD were still limited to UDMA33, being sure you run UDMA66 like the MoBo allow would make a huge difference. It would need a 80wires IDE cable. Also make sure the disk is less than 80% full.

Such a system cannot be that slow.

The cable is definitely 40wire, I currently do not have 80wire in any machine (all my pc are old) should I change udma mode? I can change mode right on hdd with hdat2 program. There is less than 5% of drive used up, I haven't given them any programs because the thing can hardly handle Windows and Firefox at the moment.

[herbalist]

Go to C:\WINDOWS\Start Menu\Programs\Accessories\System Tools\system information. Expand the selections on the left and click on "problem devices". Anything showing up there?

Try booting into safe mode and see if explorer runs a normal speed there. Also try booting to step by step confirmation and report any errors or long delays you see.

That unit should go much faster. I'm running a 366MHZ Celeron and 160MB RAM. Bootup takes under a minute from off to internet ready. Go to sysinternals and pick up autoruns and process explorer. Post a list of what's running and look through the autostart entries for anything unusual. What software is installed on this PC?

Rick

Edited February 2, 2009 by herbalist

[JatinBeniwal]

windows 98 unable to utilize much ram as it is designed for 16mb ram. Try shifting to windows 2000 pro you get blazing performance.

[cluberti]

windows 98 unable to utilize much ram as it is designed for 16mb ram.

Normally I wouldn't touch this, as I generally find Win9x old and archaic, but what you say is absolutely absurd. Windows 98's *minimum* requirement was 16MB of RAM, and the recommended was 24MB. It isn't until you get up around 1GB that the Win9x design starts to show it's age, so having the same problems at 64MB of RAM and 320MB of RAM indicate that it's not a system memory problem at all.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I have to side with most Win9x guys here - 320MB of RAM is nothing for Win98 to handle, and your statement just shows your lack of understanding of the problem.

[Javalicious]

okay I tried a different hdd but nothing changed, except that now it won't connect to the internet (and yes I did remember to install the davicom drivers lol) it still takes forever to boot up. I do note that it took 38 seconds to get past the splash screen before the net card was installed and then 55 to get past it after the net card was installed - so must be something there. But 38 seconds is too long anyway, the dirt devil only takes about 10-12 seconds on average.

@ herbalist - no problem devices showing up, in safe mode explorer is nearly as rough. Downloaded from sysinternals but the programs won't run on win98 so I've no extra info as per those. The only software installed is Win98se - Autopatcher - Firefox - Thunderbird - Everest Home - Sisoft Sandra. Autopatcher did critical, hotfixes, recommended updates. No IE, Media Player, Tweak UI etc.. Nada from manual installs. I have used Autopatcher on all my 98 machines without incident, plus as I said this machine was behaving badly before it came to me, hence, before Autopatcher, so it's not likely to blame. I agree this unit should go much faster, I've had waaay older machines that performed much MUCH better, even before they were cleaned up and tweaked. But really all I've ever done to them is a clean/slim installs of Windows, swapping Firefox and Thunderbird in place of IE and OE, updating drivers, bios, standard reg hacks and adding ram - a combination which usually does wonders - this is the first box that didn't respond even a little. I guess I've been lucky frankensteining old systems.

Oddly, while acting like a 2 legged centipede it claims 91% resources free... ????

Sandra did say one of the ram sticks is not what it's sticker says - sticker says PC100 and according to Sandra it's PC133. Also reported something about Vcore being high and some voltages that look suspicious. When I read more about Vcore is suggested it was overclocked but in fact I have turned it down from 550mhz to 500mhz thinking maybe it had been overclocked originally. Am posting bits from Sandra in hopes you folks can tell me if they may be part(s) of the problems:

Logical/Chipset 1 Memory Banks

Bank 0 : 128MB SDRAM 3-4-5-0CL

Bank 1 : 128MB SDRAM 3-4-5-0CL

Bank 2 : 64MB SDRAM 3-4-5-0CL

Speed : 1x 100MHz (100MHz data rate)

Multiplier : 1/1x

Width : 64-bit

Power Save Mode : No

Fixed Hole Present : No

Memory Module(s)

Memory Module 1 : 128MB 16x(8Mx8) SDRAM PC133U-333-542 (CL3 up to 133MHz) (CL2 up to 100MHz)

Memory Module 2 : Smart Modular PDC16UV7284B103TS D730C029 64MB 8x(8Mx8) SDRAM PC100-322-622 (CL3 up to 100MHz) (CL2 up to 67MHz)

Memory Module 3 : 64MB 8x(8Mx8) SDRAM PC100-222-622 (CL3 up to 100MHz) (CL2 up to 100MHz)

Warning 5400 : Low bandwidth efficiency (advanced). Check memory timings and settings.

These are the memory BIOS settings:

CAS Lat - 3T

Ras to Cas delay - 4T

Ras Precharge - 5T

Ras Active - 7T

Ram spd - 8ns

Referesh Queue depth 4

These are the "optimal performance" settings as selected by bios. Should they be different? I've tried "best performance" as well, they perform identically under windows.

Voltage Sensor(s)

CPU Voltage : 2.06V

Aux Voltage : 2.03V

+3.3V Voltage : 1.06V

+5V Voltage : 3.44V

+12V Voltage : 9.42V

These look terribly off - could it be a power problem?

Warning 236: Processor 1 : Vcore higher than rated maximum. Check Vcore setting!

Vcore is 1.68 - what should it be?

AGP Bus(es) on Hub 1

Version : 2.00

Maximum Data Transfer Rate : 2x

Fast-Writes Enabled : No

Side Band Enabled : No

Side Band Support : Yes

Aperture Size : 64MB

Tip 2513 : AGP Bus is unused or AGP card not fully AGP compatible.

Tip 2525 : Current AGP data rate not optimal.

Warning 1209: Silicon Integrated Systems (SiS) SiS530,620 GUI Accelerator+3D : Video card does not have an interrupt assigned.

The graphics are onboard, there is no card - plus I can see no where to enable Side Band or set proper data rate in bios?

Sandra seems contradictory here:

LPC Hub Controller 1

Model : Silicon Integrated Systems (SiS) SiS PCI to ISA Bridge (LPC Bridge)

ACPI Power Management Enabled : Yes

Random Number Generator Enabled : No

Multiplier : 1/4x

Speed : 8MHz

DMA Multiplier : 1/2x

DMA Speed : 4MHz

Tip 1107: System does not support ACPI. Check for a BIOS update.

BIOS says it is enabled - but system does not support it - update bios... huh??

DirectX Information >>>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tip 2212: Primary Display Driver (display) : No

hardware stretch support.

Error: Game Compatible Device (emulated) (WaveOut 1)

: DX-DS E8878000A

Error: Voice Modem Wave #00 Line (emulated) (WaveOut

2) : DX-DS E8878000A

Error: Voice Modem Wave #00 Handset (emulated)

(WaveOut 3) : DX-DS E8878000A

Error: Game Compatible Device (emulated) (WaveIn 1) :

DX-DS E8878000A

I don't know what, or if these errors may have to do with anything but since they are errors and under Direct X I thought I'd post them just in case.

Thanks again for eveyone's input