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speedemon86

Trimming down a less than reliable XP system

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Typically, the kind/type of customer who comes into my shop has problems or issues that are something along these lines:

"Hi, I'm 45+ years old and I purchase this OEM computer 5-7 years ago and it's running like garbage. I cannot afford to purchase a brand-new desktop PC that will run Vista correctly because I would have to take out a second mortgage on my home or sell my children into slavery - can you help me out?"

...

My typical customer is 45+ years old, lives in a 500k (or more) home, usually drives a 70k car to his 55-60 hour per week senior management position, has 3 children and a "trophy" wife with fake boobs who loves to shop.

Your quotes of $427.92 and $324.00 and "sub-$500 PCs" are not my "real world" examples - not here in my market - not here for the majority of my customers - not here by a long shot -

They EXPECT to pay the amounts I describe - otherwise they feel they are not getting QUALITY - like I said: "junk".

:huh: And that's only one example. But most don't have the time nor any reason to take this seriously.

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Gentlemen,

I am sorry to say that our time together has to come to a close. I have asked the "powers to be" to close this thread after my response, which will be brief...

We not going anywhere with "debating" (I'm using that term loosely on all our parts) about mostly hypotheticals and points of view based on no knowledge of market, market conditions, economy, customer expectations, business philosophy, etc.

If I wanted to go on vacation from Chicago to Montreal or Quebec, I could take a plane, train, boat, drive, or hitch-hike - there are many ways to go about getting there - in the end, it's all the same - so as long as you get there, right?

I prefer a first-class seat on an airplane, you may decide to drive or hitch-hike - the decision on how to proceed is in the eye of the beholder.

Its been fun, lively, entertaining, and I've learned a few things - I hope you can say the say the same. If not, I'll say it again - read the posts!

Needless to say...

It's called For the Love of Money by The O'jays, you id***.

I was putting it in "simple, stupid" terms because I didn't know if you knew who wrote the song - making it easier for you to understand. This is one of the reasons I have requested to have this thread closed.

Need I say more?

Besides, in your haste to bash, you missed "Queue" - meaning: a type of data structure or Mail "queue", used by non-commercial SMTP e-mail servers to process incoming and outgoing e-mails. "Cue music, lights..."

TANSTAAFL

You are right - "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" - or were you using the acronym as a quazi-response to the many negative claims towards the positive virtues of the free software / hardware movement?

And I was called an id***? Junk.

Typically, the kind/type of customer

You guys, seriously, you really need to read the posts! Especially if you are going to offer advice or help to others!!!

The first description was discussing the kind/type of customer that I've had experience with that had problems or issues with a system...

The second description was discussing the kind/type of customer that I've had experience with who was interested in purchasing hardware - or a new system.

Again, you really need to read the posts and understand the context in which they are placed, the bigger picture in which it's placed, and it's history - if not, ask "what do you mean by that?" - otherwise, you will make the same mistakes again!

I'm finished here. It's been a slice.

poolsharkzz

Edited by Poolsharkzz

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were you using the acronym as a quazi-response to the many negative claims towards the positive virtues of the free software / hardware movement?

It was an answer to your numerous "they don't get a flat screen" or "they don't get a printer" points.

They don't get a free flat screen nor printer, no matter if they pay someone $450 for 5 minutes of work, or if they buy computer parts, or a $5000 pre-built tower. They aren't free, so no one gives them out (if you do seemingly get one for free "as a bonus", it's just included in the inflated price). They don't get what they don't buy (just like they don't get a new car, new couch, nor a new dishwasher out of it), so your point was totally irrelevant.

If their printer and monitor are working fine with their P3 (it's just the computer that's too slow), I see no real reason to change them. And if they're not good enough, then in all 3 cases you're going to have to pay to buy those regardless. Yet, you only added the cost of those items to the situation where someone buys or builds a new PC (as if you needed it then, but otherwise wouldn't), somehow making it much more expensive -- just like your "does it run Vista well?" point, which also seems to serve you as a purpose to make the hardware upgrade seem a lot more expensive. It's not like their P3 can run it at any speed, and a simple hardware upgrade of the P3 would have given their existing OS a GREAT speed boost regardless (a LOT more than any tweaks ever would)

That's all I was saying.

Edited by crahak

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The inner part is somewhat faster, but when you increase the amount of seek drastically for every sector you need, you're not gaining anything, much the inverse.

The OUTER part of the hard drive is faster. And HDDs read from the OUTSIDE IN, like old vinyl LPs and unlike CDs. Gotcha there.

It's not really that funny, nor surprising. Eventually they phase out some old things, and stop supporting them. In this case, a codec seemingly. With x64, they also stopped supporting other stuff, like the Microsoft.Jet.OLEDB.4.0 ODBC provider, or providing components like ntvdm.

Problem: The file exists. But it doesn't work.

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore. The E6550 i bought then runs at 60C loaded at 3.5GHz.

And you should stop arguing with Poolsharkzz. He isn't right in everything but he is pretty close to being. The point is he makes money out of this while you don't. Just one thing i should have to tell you Poolsharkzz, Dell SUCKS. But i agree from buying from a local hardware store when you need warranties, i do the same thing.

Edit: crahak, but what do they do if their old printer does not work with Vista? :lol:

Edited by Th3_uN1Qu3

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Yep, I said inner when I should've said outer. Sue me :P

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore.

PEBCAK. Mine never gets this hot even though it's overclocked 85% and using the cheap stock cooler, even when at full load for several hours. And zero crashes so far. Didn't see any such reports by anyone else so far either, and they sell a LOT, so if they sucked this badly, we'd be seeing a LOT of such reports and everybody would say they suck, yet, you're the first I see that claims this.

The point is he makes money out of this while you don't.

I don't make $ overcharging people for this indeed, I'd sooner make money building them a box. Besides, I don't do that kind of thing for a living (not my job), so of course I ain't making money out of it.

what do they do if their old printer does not work with Vista?

Again, I never said they should move to Vista (much the inverse), and most printers work fine with it anyways, including my ancient HP LJ4+

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PEBCAK. Mine never gets this hot even though it's overclocked 85% and using the cheap stock cooler, even when at full load for several hours. And zero crashes so far. Didn't see any such reports by anyone else so far either, and they sell a LOT, so if they sucked this badly, we'd be seeing a LOT of such reports and everybody would say they suck, yet, you're the first I see that claims this.

Maybe i'm just an unlucky bastard, however, the E2180 was the first CPU that i ever had trouble with. Just curious, what temps do you get on that stock cooler when overclocked? I doubt they're very pretty.

Edited by Th3_uN1Qu3

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The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore. The E6550 i bought then runs at 60C loaded at 3.5GHz.
You probably had a CPU that had poor contact between the die and the IHS. Lapping or switching out the CPU won't help there. I've got my E2160 in my server, running at 100% 24/7 (BOINC projects), and it's currently at 52C on both cores (passive cooling on a Scythe Ninja).
And you should stop arguing with Poolsharkzz. He isn't right in everything but he is pretty close to being. The point is he makes money out of this while you don't. Just one thing i should have to tell you Poolsharkzz, Dell SUCKS. But i agree from buying from a local hardware store when you need warranties, i do the same thing.
The point is that I too make my living this way!!! poolsharkz has given this topic nothing but FUD about modern hardware, and has shown us that he's too busy fixing old computers to be knowledgable about current systems. I make about $15K from my university stipend, and another $5K from working as a TA and a tutor. The rest of my income (which is my expendable income) comes mainly from computer repair and maintenance work. I don't have a shop, but I do housecalls for businesses and home customers. I can't name one reputable computer repair shop that actually recommends old hardware over new. I can't think of any large market where products made 10 years ago are better than those sold today...

Dell does not suck. My 2.5 year old laptop had a dud hard drive, and the system fan was starting to get noisy (not broken, just buzzed now and then). Here's what happened about a month ago.

  • I called them on a Thurdsay. Told them the hard drive was broken and the fan was loud. We walked through about 5 minutes of their on-the-phone troubleshooting. They confirmed that the hard drive was dead, and said they'd take it in.
  • Friday morning - Purolator delivers an empty box containing a return shipping label. I put the computer in the box, attach the shipping label, and call Purolator. They're at my door two hours later to pick it up.
  • Monday - regular business day.
  • Tuesday - Statutory Holiday - It was Canada Day. Pretty much EVERYTHING in the country, except essential services, closes.
  • Wednesday - Computer arrives at my house at 9AM.

Let's look at that timeline again. One business day turnaround. ONE! Now, if you can say that other PC manufacturers can match that kind of service, I'd really love to hear it. Toshiba - forget it. Acer - nope. Lenovo - good, but not this good. LG - pfft... Sony - yuck.

In Canada, businesses can claim 30% depreciation on computer hardware purchases per year for three years. This means that according to the government (and all of their financial backings), the value of the computer has dropped to 10% of what it was initially after three years. Not five, not eight, and not ten. Three. No person in their right mind would pay $5000 in labour on a car that was worth $1000, so why would someone spend $450 on a computer that's worth less than 10% of that?

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LOL you need to do some reading because just the e2140 alone runs all the time for A LOT of people at 3+gigs!!! With stock cooling.

I ran mine with the bsel mod for 8+ months on Vista ultimate without any lockup or crashes! What gave out? The **** mobo is what not the cpu not the ram. (temps of 50-60 on full load too with the stock intel cooler.)

2180 is more than enough to run vista ultimate. Look on Toms Hardware and other places for reviews and serious results not just CRAP sayings, ACTUAL results!

Toms Hardware thread = http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/245296-29-e2180-overclock

Xtreme view = http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-3247-vie...erclocking.html

hardware canucks = http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/overc...xperiences.html

Hell they are everywhere. I am using one of the lowest dual cores possible and the proccesor got a 5.1 On the performance index. Get that a 5.1!!!

You are really blowing smoke provide actual results not just your opinion.

Edited by Kelsenellenelvian

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You probably had a CPU that had poor contact between the die and the IHS. Lapping or switching out the CPU won't help there.

If you read the whole paragraph, i had removed the IHS entirely, yet i was still having the same issue.

Dell's laptops are pretty good. Their desktops suck balls. Toshiba sucks in every aspect, Acer used to suck hard now they semi-suck, Lenovo isn't what IBM used to be, and that's about it.

Benchmarks... Bah. All Core chips score high numbers. But no benchmark is able to measure the "feel" of the system. For the end-user that only does basic tasks with their computer, that's what matters the most. And WEI scores are so easily faked.

Edited by Th3_uN1Qu3

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Just curious, what temps do you get on that stock cooler when overclocked? I doubt they're very pretty.

43C and 45C, after over 9 1/2h of encoding a HD movie in x264 (pretty slow using these settings w/ deinterlacing, fancy avisynth script and all -- yes, I do need a quad core). And that's @ 3.4GHz (it's a E2160 though, not a E2180). See the pic.

loadtempsia5.th.png

Zxian's temps aren't much higher on passive cooling.

Dell does not suck.

While it probably sucks for gamers who want the latest vid cards and such for cheap, for basic business systems it's just fine. We got a pretty good support contract for free out of it too (not outsourced in India either), with 1 business day service (you call, next day someone shows up with spare parts), and pretty good prices. It runs Windows, Office and everything else just fine. They're silent enough and all that. No stability problems or anything so far. We don't have to return bad hard drives either (we just fax them a copy of the label) due to the sensitive data that might be on it. No real complaints about them here (not that I'd buy one for my specific needs).

I think Zxian pretty much said it as it is (he makes a habit of it too).

Hell they are everywhere. I am using one of the lowest dual cores possible and the proccesor got a 5.1 On the performance index. Get that a 5.1!!!

You are really blowing smoke provide actual results not just your opinion.

My $70 E2160 that's getting close to a year old gets 5.7 :) I'd say that's pretty good too.

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SpeedFan does not read C2D temps properly. Ever heard of CoreTemp or RealTemp? I want a shot of those.

And oh, you can encode x264 videos just fine... at 3 FPS. Wow, that's an amazing processor you got there man! Also Vista Experience Index scores don't really mean anything.

Edited by Th3_uN1Qu3

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If you read the whole paragraph, i had removed the IHS entirely, yet i was still having the same issue.
Whoops... missed that part. I'm not sure what happened with that chip then. There have been cases where the thermal diode is broken, or the TJunction value is set incorrectly, giving you abnormal readings. I've built about 5 systems with E2100 series CPUs (two for myself), and none of them have had abonormally high temperatures.
Dell's laptops are pretty good. Their desktops suck balls. Toshiba sucks in every aspect, Acer used to suck hard now they semi-suck, Lenovo isn't what IBM used to be, and that's about it.
I'm not talking about the hardware here - I'm talking service. Unless you go for business class systems, all OEM hardware sucks. Lenovo ThinkPads are the only laptops that have some out of the box quality feel to them (and they don't really break the bank either).

Edit - the latest release of SpeedFan does measure temperatures correctly for all but the 45-nm chips out of the box. Otherwise, it's simply a matter of adding an offset from SpeedFan's default TJunction temperature (100C) and the actual TJunction on your CPU.

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you can encode x264 videos just fine... at 3 FPS. Wow, that's an amazing processor you got there man!

It only shows how little you know about encoding.

I can encode XviD At full D1, with great settings, doing Lanczos4Resize, deinterlacing and all @ 150fps+ average (with spikes over 200fps) I can also encode a few dozen mpeg audio or AC3 streams in mp3 in real-time. It totally spanks a friends' Athlon64 X2 6400+ in actual encoding speeds, and it also benches about the same as a core 2 duo 6850 (both cost like $300 back when I got this CPU for 1/4 of that price)

But now decode & frameserve high bitrate 1080i, deinterlace it in a non-ghetto way, Spline36Resize it down to 720p, do fancy (slow) sharpening stuff, color space conversion, etc. You'll see even a $1000 Xeon chip slow down to a crawl. A Q6600 would get around 6fps with this particular source, avisynth script, and particular build of the x264 codec, and a $350 Q9550 about 8fps. The first x264 pass is always pretty quick, but the second, ouch. I regularly see people with Athlon64 3800+ and such getting around 1fps, heh. You don't actually seem to know much about fast CPUs... or at least what they're capable of when it comes to encoding high def material in high quality H.264.

BTW, that is the latest version of SpeedFan -- v4.35, and the core temps were fixed in 4.34 :) Yes, it actually does run that cold, even at full load, overclocked, on a stock HSF.

Edit: here's the screenshot you asked for:

othertempsqf7.th.png

Yep, they report even LOWER temps! 40C and 42C.

Edited by crahak

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SpeedFan does not read C2D temps properly. Ever heard of CoreTemp or RealTemp? I want a shot of those.

And oh, you can encode x264 videos just fine... at 3 FPS. Wow, that's an amazing processor you got there man! Also Vista Experience Index scores don't really mean anything.

You bash the E2xxx series processors as if they were VIA C7s... your inability to properly build a system using an E2xxx series processor only proves YOUR inability to properly build a modern PC. Millions of those processors have been sold around the world and everyone's had nothing but praise for the amazing power such inexpensive processors have, they've been used in millions of builds and have been overclocked to ridiculous amounts with everyday regular cooling without running abnormally hot, yet you think it's s*** so we should all throw our computers out the window? Even Ray Charles had better vision. Edited by jcarle

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Keep it clean. Warnings all around - if you don't start following rule 7b, I'll start suspending accounts. That goes for all of you, not one in specific. Keep it clean, and I'll let the banter go back and forth. If the lack of respect continues as-is, I'll put up the virtual roadblock from using the site for 3 days. I will generally let banter go back and forth, even heated, but if the fine line of rule 7b is crossed I *will* suspend accounts or ban and there will be no discussion.

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